Kill the past, present and future with Suda51

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From mortuaries to millions

Before creating No More Heroes, Shadows of the Damned, Killer7, and countless others, worked in a mortuary. Then, almost overnight, he became a game director. His primary qualification? Confidence. An outsider to the industry, he made waves from the very start, using the otherwise by-the-book Fire Pro Wrestling franchise to tell a story of ni馃嵃hilism and self-destruction.

Twenty-nine years later and he’s still doing things his own way. The biggest difference now is, he’s got experience on his side. And the money probably doesn’t hurt either. Last year, Grasshopper Manufacture (Suda’s studio) was acquired by NetEase, a game publisher with an estimated value of 63 billion dollars.

As a massive fan of Suda’s work, I was afraid that this change in business partners may lead him to make more conventional games. From the sounds of this interview with Japanese site , (posted here in English for the first time via a translation from Grasshopper themselves), we won’t have to worry about that.

This detailed account of his career 鈥� packed with exclusive reveals about his past, present, and future 鈥� points to this new “NetEase era” being the most exciting, unhinged chapter in his story yet.

DenFaminicoGamer: The reason for this interv鉁眎ew is that Grasshopper Manufacture has become part of NetEase Games, and have started recruiting staff, but what was the original intention behind the founding of Grasshopper?

SUDA51: During my time at Human Entertainment, I thought of myself as a director. I took over the Fire Pro Wrestling series, handling two games. Next, I was put in charge of the Twilight Syndrome team, which was on the brink of collapse, and reorganized it. Which is to say, somehow or another, I would complete whatever work that the company gave me without fa馃専il.

However, after Twilight Syndrome was finished, I did things akin to in-game destruction with Moonlight Syndrome (laughs). Human was a company with a lot of freedom, so at the time, I was able to take on a variety of challenges in tha馃崹t manner.

The reason I left Human w嘟s that I wasn鈥檛 able to make my own IP or representative work. I had the constant dilemma of no軎梩 being able to create an original title. On top of that, I understood that as long as I stayed with Human, that kind of chance would not come easily, so I had to leave. Around that time, the company itself was in decline. There were things like pay delays, and just bad vibes in the air.

However, after leaving Human, I visited ASCII Corporation, who had previously reached out to me, and I intended to enter their company as a regular employee. Then I was told by the people at ASCII, 鈥淣ow is the t軎昳me that you could start a company.鈥� And that鈥檚 the story of how I started Grasshopper.

DFG: Was the desire to create your own original IPs and have your own co馃敟mpany something that you had been contemplating for a long time?

SUDA51:Everything was a bit all 饾搥over the place at Human, so I really love馃叞d the company itself. The president was eccentric, and he even hated games.

Human also ran the Human Creative School, which was the world鈥檚 first video game school. Every year graduates would enter the company, so our 馃挓development staff was mostly comprised of people in their twenties. I was 24 when I started at Human, so there was a huge number of staff that were younger than me鉀�, like around 22 or so. It was a maelstrom of hot-blooded youth that was almost like a zoo (laughs).

I think the great part about that company was the ability to create something from nothing. Th馃ey were also the originators of pro wrestling games. Ryoji Amano, creator of the soccer games, and Masato Masuda, who was my mentor, were two people who could establish the creative process and create something from nothing. The company was filled with an atmosphere th饞亙at made it feel like we could rapidly develop new games, and I think we were the top sports game developer at the time. So, I always thought that I wanted to further invigorate the company from within.

However, the president was caught for tax evasion, and when I woke in the morning, I experienced what it was like to have cameras from the TV station all over the place (laughs). After going through so馃吅mething like that,饟劎 I thought, 鈥淚 probably need to get out of here鈥�, and it felt like I had shifted gears.

DFG:聽In regard to the specialist school that you mentioned, how did the recently graduated students create game馃悡s?

SUDA51: I didn鈥檛 come from the Human Creative School, but the incredible thing about it was that the students made games that were actually released. Some examples are Septentrion [English title: SOS], Dragon鈥檚 Earth, and The Firemen (All Super Nintendo games).

So, in that manner, the people who join us from the school had created a game as a team in their school days. It felt like they were already semi-professional when they joined Human, so they seemed less like students and more like cocky kids, thic锓絢 with self-confidence. Like 鈥淗ey, we馃憤鈥檝e already made a game, you know.鈥�

You had the old timers and the n戋焑w grads, and there was a lot 鉁╫f conflict. I was just dropped in as a mid-career guy. Those days were pretty incredible.

DFG: You ca戋�lled them o軎卨d timers, but they were also in their twenties, right?

SUDA51: Yes, they were about the same age. The old timers were in their late twenties, while the new grads were in their early twenties. Even though they were all in their twenties, there was a clash of馃Ι youth.

As I 馃was saying before, the new grads were a醼 the level where they could quickly become leaders. Upon joining, they became the aces of the team. So new projects were quickly completed, one after another. I think it鈥檚 quite difficult these days to create a team of young staff, but at that time, it was common for teams of graduates to quickly come together.

The teams were formed, and games were made rapidly. A game that took one year to develop was on the long side, and we were often told to develop things within three months. Waku Waku Ski Wonder Spur [Super Nintendo] was developed in only three month馃悹s, and was full of bugs (laughs). I felt bad for the staff in charge.

There was also a game called Yakyuu Ou [鈥楤aseball King鈥�; Planned for release on the Super Nintendo, but was cancelled]. It was a legendary game where the batter would run straight toward third base after hitting the ball (laughs). At the time, Human would hold stand-alone events, and they held one at Sunshine in Ikebukuro where they played Yakyuu Ou on a huge screen. When the pitcher threw the ball and the batter got a strike, the umpire yelled, 鈥淏all!鈥� and there was a commotion in the crowd (laughs). Th馃幎ey had made quite a mischievous game.

DFG: From your point of view, do y戋媜u feel like those kinds of mischievous games aren鈥檛 around these days?

SUDA51: There certainly aren鈥檛 any like that.

DFG: What do you think the reason for that is?

SUDA51: These days, we don鈥檛 play the numbers game anymore, or rather we can鈥檛. Up until the Super Nintendo era, it was a period where if you just released a game, it would sell. The sales staff were very skilled, and it was as if, no matter the game, they would sell馃檲 200,000 copies to stores just to begin with. The sales staff would travel all over the country to entertain, and wine and dine with their clients. It was a rather vulgar time in those days, where regardless of a game鈥檚 quality, as long as you had something, it could be sold. I thi鈾沶k that was a major part of things.

In regard to judging a game鈥檚 quality, there really wasn鈥檛 anything other than Famitsu鈥檚 cross review. However, it was a time where even if the score was low, the game would sell anyway. So, as long as you had 馃崿enthusiasm, you could make anything and everything. In a way, I think it was a time where even if you made a dud, you still gathered experience. These days, your career could be finished after even ju馃惒st one failure.

Fire Pro Wrestling was also a proclamation of my creative ability

DFG: I believe that there was a period where you started to show your in馃敮dividuality as a director, was that intentional?

SUDA51: Yes, it was intentional. I brought my individuality to the forefront with Super Fire Pro Wrestling Special.

I felt like with the game I made before that, Super Fire Pro Wrestling 3 Final Bout, I was trying to precisely follow in the steps of the previous game, Super Fire Pro Wrestling 2. It was around then that there was a major incident within Human, with the section manager at the time, Shuji Yoshida, quitting the company. I received strong backing with Yoshida-san鈥檚 parting words, 鈥淚鈥檓 quitting, but you鈥檙e free to make the next Fire Pro as you see fit, Su馃挍da-kun.鈥� My mentor, Masuda, also said to me, 鈥淵ou can do it however you want to, Suda-kun.鈥�

I thought that if I could do whatever I liked, then I would throw in all the things I wanted to do. I think adding a kind of story mode to Fire Pro Special was the catalyst for me to start expressing my creativity. I think that was both a beginnin軎峠, and in another way, a proclamation.

DFG:聽I see, so that鈥檚 where i锟�锟絫 began. By the way, how 馃尦was it that you came to be a director?

SUDA51: To tell you the truth, I actually once failed the interview section of Human鈥檚 entrance test (laughs). However, by chance, that was right around the same time that Daisuke Asako, my predecessor in the Fire Pro team, handed in his letter of r馃叞esignation. There weren鈥檛 any people left in the plan嘟ing department who had deep knowledge of pro wrestling.

That鈥檚 when someone who remembered me called me in for another interview, and I was hired by the company. My predecessor, Asako-san, was only at the company for three more馃挅 days, during which he handed things over to me before leaving the company. From that moment on, I was already a director.

DFG: Wha鈥�?! You were a d軎夝煇籭rector as soon as you started? What kind of experience did you have prior to that?

SUDA51:聽I had done a variety of different jobs. As for what got me involved in the game industry, it was during my time as a graphic designer when I made company brochures and advertisements for Sega as a contractor. Since I was to make advertisements for Virtua Racing馃悡, Yu Suzuki invited me to the AM2 offices. That was my first ti锓�me seeing a game development environment, and I was shocked.

Up until that moment, I had thought that鈾� games were made by professors. I always thought the games were made by computer experts who wore white lab coats, but they were actually just ordinary young men and women. Not to mention, they had stacks of things like Nirvana CDs on their desks.

I thought, 鈥淗uh, they鈥檙e just normal people.鈥� It gave me the na茂ve idea that even I could do it too (laughs). It was then that the game industry, which seemed so very far away, suddenly felt like it entered my field of view. O馃挒r maybe you could say it suddenly felt more realistic. I thought to myself, 鈥淢aking games as a job. What could be better than馃叞 that?鈥�

DFG:聽So, you had never studied p嗟﹔ogramming or anyth鈾奿ng like that before then?

SUDA51:聽Not at all. I had no skills at all. If I had to pick out one th鈾昳ng as a skill, it would have been that my pro wrestling knowledge was without peer. That was what I really focused on.

DFG: Before that, was there anyt馃摉hing that made you interest軎揺d in games?

SUDA51: My interest in games 戋焎omes from always h醼nging out at game centers when I was a kid.

DFG: So, since the arcade days?

SUDA51: It was the height of the arcade era. After the release of Space Invaders鈾�, game centers popped up all throughout the city. There was a place just beyond the highway where one play was 20 yen. I would hang around there during my days off when I was a student.

DFG: You said that you worked as a graphic designer. Did you always have the desire to do 馃厾some kind of creative work?

SUDA51: Hmm, not a clear desire or anything like that. I worked every day in order to keep living in Tokyo, and I also got married quite early, so it felt like the next thing was to look for a job with better pay. With that in mind, working in the game industry wasn鈥檛 among the typ軎歟s of jobs that I was looking at.

However, I received encouragement from my wife. After working as a graphic designer, I worked as a temporary employee at a funeral parlor. Undertakers make really good money. People my age were going independent and starting their own companies, and the managers would all drive to work in foreign cars. Being able to drive dream cars like a Renault 5 Turbo was pretty cool. I gradually rose in rank while I worked as an undertaker, and a number of companies even asked me if I would嗉� become a full-time employee.

I also thought that I 嗟ヽould make a good living in the industry, so I accepted my fate and told my wife that I intended to become a full-time employee. My wife said to me, 鈥淚s this why you came to Tokyo? There鈥檚 something else that you want to do,鉁� isn鈥檛 there?鈥�

鈥淚s there鈥�? I gue馃惢ss I want to work on games or something like that.鈥�

鈥淭hen you should go for it.鈥�

Then I just happened to see job advertisements for both Human and Atlus in a magazine that I bought. Only those two compani饞妿es were willing to accept applicants with no experience. I sent in my applicatio鈾妌, but I only managed to catch on with Human.

DFG: Why did you come to Tokyo?

SUDA51: I simply wanted to go to Tokyo and get away from the 馃悗countryside軎�. That was really the only reason.

DFG: Did you continue to play games even while you worked as a graphic designe馃幎r and undertaker?

SUDA51: Yes, but games were really expensive in those days. One game would cost 7,000 to 8,000 yen. But once the price gradually dropped to around 3,000 yen, it became a choice to either buy a game or one CD. However, I would buy Weekly Famitsu almost every week.

DFG: Why was that?

SUDA51: Because I loved games, of course. If possible, I wanted to play some good games. I also used it to try to convince my wife. I wanted to play the games that got a good score in the c馃惢ross review (laughs).

By doing work that went beyond my own scope, I was accepted as director by the staff

DFG: When you interviewed at Human, you didn鈥檛 have anything spec戋焛fic in mind like director or graphic artist, right?

SUDA51: Yes, that鈥檚 right. If they hired me, I was prepared to do anythi軎搉g that they asked me to.

DFG: And then you we嗟﹔e suddenly made director as soon as you joined the company. Did it feel like fate?

SUDA51: It felt like a gift from the pro wrestling gods. Things were handed over to me in only three days. I also had one of the planning staff assigned to watch over me. In the beginning, it felt like he was the director by p馃挒roxy, but midway through, everyth馃惙ing was entrusted to me. It was like, 鈥淪uda-san, you can already do this on your own.鈥� From that point on, I handled things by myself.

DFG: Looking back at it now, did you ever戋� think 鈥淲hy was I put in charge of all this?鈥�

SUDA51: Since I was put in charge, I was aware that I had to persevere and get through it. There were about twenty staff members in th馃幎e planning department, but only around half of those worked on the actual development. The remaining half were like jobless wanderers, every day they would do things like write proposals and submit things to the section manager.

I wanted to protect my own position, or you could say that I wanted to survive in this industry. After a few days, I軎� had a hunch that this was the right path for my life. I also thought that I would be able to utilise the know-how from the other work that I had done up until that point.

The manager handed me a cardboard box containing materials for the previous game, Super Fire Pro Wrestling 2, and said, 鈥淵ou have one week to look over these and put together a specification document.鈥� I read through all the materials in one day, and I submitted the specification document in three days. At any rate, I completed the task faster than I was told to. I鈥檓 not the Red Comet [Char Aznable from Mobile Suit Gundam], but I knew that I could do the work three times faster than other people. I wanted to succeed and continue to survive 锓絯ithin the planning department.

DFG: So, is the work of a director to look over those ki馃弲馃惢nds of materials, and then start by following the example of others?

SUDA51: Yes, that鈥檚 right. However, I think that I was馃ぁ more skilled than the other staff at things like inputting data and designing layouts. I also felt that I could compete well by using the difference in my past work experience. And then just speed, I guess. I thought that I would be in trouble unless I c鈽�ould thoroughly show that I was able to work faster and complete more work than others.

DFG: I believe that the role of a director is the kind of thing that can鈥檛 be taught, even if you try to teach it. Therefore, they鈥檙e incredibly valuable. When you look at those working as directors these days, many have been directors from the beginning, or some incident caused them to be thrust into the role, and upon which, they managed to succeed. In that sense, how do you think your sensibil嗉篿ty as a director took root?

SUDA51: The first thing that I was conscious of, was just trying to survive at the company. Rather than馃Ц the idea of 鈥淚 want to be a director,鈥� it was more 鈥淚 want to make games at Human,鈥� and 鈥淚 want to become the best in the planning department.鈥� It may have been that I had a clear s鈽俥nse of wanting to achieve the goals in front of me, one by one.

DFG: Were there any thing馃挦s that you did to dif醿erentiate yourself from other people?

SUDA51: Hmm, rather than doing anything special, I feel like it w饾攭as just about gaining recognition by completing things step by step.

DFG: In your current position, I鈥檓 sure that there are times you assign others to the role of director. At such a time, is there a certain something that a person has that prompts you to put them into that role? Or are there times where you think鈾� someone is lacking in something and that they would struggle as a director? How do you feel regarding those aspects?

SUDA51: I think that those who go beyond the tasks that ar馃惌e assigned to them are suited to being directors. Like wanting to do more than you鈥檝e been given, or getting more involved on your own, and doing all the unreasonable things that are asked of you.

For example, I鈥檒l do something like ask the staff who have never written a scenario before, to try writing one. Some of them will happily complete such a task, and those are the kinds of people that I think could be suited to directing. Also, take people who are skilled at drawing. There are those who will just draw things on their own when the design馃吅ers 鈾攁ren鈥檛 making progress. I think they too are the kind of people suited to directing.

To put it another way, it鈥檚 the attitude of doing w馃惉ork for the sake of the project, even if it goes beyond the scope of your own abilities. It鈥檚 likely that the people around you will see that too. So, you could also say that you鈥檙e earning their recognition. I think it鈥檚 difficult to be accepted just by saying that you鈥檙e the director, but there鈥檚 merit to having the staff around you think, 鈥淚f it鈥檚 for this person, I want to give it another go.鈥�

At first, there were a lot of programmers and such that wouldn鈥檛 speak with me at all. Which is exactly why I would stay with them as we worked through the night, and when they took a nap, I would go and buy McDonald鈥檚 for them in the morning. After they woke up, we would engage in small talk as we ate together. I feel like it was a build-up of things like that. Then they eventually acknowledged this strange guy who 鈾恈ame out of nowhere as a director. That鈥檚 how, one by one, I got them to accept me. It was truly like a grassroots effort.

DFG: I see. 戋扴o, in other words, you would do whatever it took to fulfill your role as director?

SUDA51: Yes, that鈥檚 right. Even馃尡 handling chores and odd jobs without complaint.

Being able to work with Shinji Mikami on Killer7 became an asset to Grasshopper

DFG: In your own mind, when was it that you felt that your games began to receive a strong response? Looking from the outside, I feel like it was with Killer7 that you received worldwide recognition.

SUDA51: Killer7 was definitely the turning point. I think that being able to work with Capcom, and thoroughly create something with Shinji Mikami was a considerable asset to today鈥檚 Grasshopper. The reception from around the world was greater than what we were expecting, and馃崒 when we c嘟mpleted it, there was a sense that we had made a game that no one had ever seen before. I thought that we had made a game that really fit the word 鈥榥ew鈥�, and that it was something that would become synonymous with me.

The response was much greater than I expected. While traveling overseas for the promotion of No More Heroes, I heard the praise for Killer7 directly for the first time, and I was a little surprised by it. Also, it was from a different media outlet, but a certain editor-in-chief once said to me, 鈥淚 was thinking of quitting and giving up on this industry, but when I came across Killer7, I though鈽倀 that there may still be a future for video games. I鈥檝e decided to keep at it.鈥� That person may have forgotten all about it (laughs), but I was elated to hear those words. I wondered if I had really made a game with such power.

DFG: I think that Killer7 was a completely different kind of game to what was popular at th軎恊 time. Why was it that you wanted to make that kind of game? Did you try to go against the trends, or was it just something that happened naturally?

SUDA51: When thinking about Grasshopper Manufacture in the long term, I kind of had a vision of how I wanted to proceed. Since we didn鈥檛 have a large number of staff, I wanted to start with an adventure game, then a 3D adventure game, then acti嗉抩n-adventure鈥� That was the progression that I was thinking ab馃ぁout how to achieve.

Killer7 was right at the time when we wanted to do an action-adventure game. Since we were doing an action-adventure, and teaming up with Shinji Mikami, the creator of Resident Evil, I also felt like I had to invent something new. I decided on my own to carry the heavy burden of such a responsibility. So, with the mindset of wanting to newly conceive all aspects of the design, Kiiller7 was what I created.

So that鈥檚 why, from the story to the art to the controls, I wanted all of the des饞惇ign choices to be things that had never been seen before. I felt like I was building up the things that I invented, one by one. More so than aiming for a specif軎恑c thing, I was conscious of Mikami-san while making the game. The whole time I thought to myself, 鈥淚 absolutely have to make something that Mikami-san won鈥檛 be ashamed of.鈥�

DFG: What was it that led t馃崒o you working with Mikami-san at that time?

SUDA51: He suddenly called me out of the blue. Kono-kun [Hifumi Kono, creator of Clock Tower, Neko-zamurai (PS1), Mikagura Shojo Tanteidan (PS1), and Steel Battalion], a co-worker锟�锟� from my Human days, had introduced me to Mikami-san. So, I went to see Mikami-san, and h馃崹e said, 鈥淪uda-san, do you want to make a game together?鈥� My reply was, 鈥淵es, of course.鈥�

DFG: So, it was a request from Mikami-san?

SUDA51: Yes, that鈥檚 right. Mikami-san had a high opinion of Human itself. He said, 鈥淭hat com喙刾any released some outrageous games, but I wonder what kind of people were in the planning department.鈥� It seems that he had been paying attention to u鉁眘 for a long time, and that was also part of the reason he called me.

DFG: 馃叿Were there things that you learned by working 饞厡together with Mikami-san and Capcom?

SUDA51: Yes. For example, when we had completed the prototype version, I brought it over to Mikami-san so that he could play the first stage. I was startled when he said to me, 鈥淪uda-san, can you increase the speed of the running motion to three times this? Next time I want to see it 啾燼t triple the speed.鈥� The sensation 馃that I got from playing was the feeling of an adventure game. By tripling the speed, the game became incredibly fast, as you would expect. However, by making that change, suddenly it felt like the rhythm of an action game. 鈥淥h, this is it!鈥� I thought. The feeling or sense of speed was different when creating the game.

I think that Mikami-san鈥檚 skill is a result of possessing the 鈥榮ense of action games鈥� that he must have somehow inherited through his genes. 馃寖Really detailed things such as the way the first step is taken after input, the feeling of speed while running, and not鉀刬cing the one frame delay in the moment you aim. Maybe you could call it the play feel. He pays detailed attention to the subtleties of the reaction that occurs at the time of the button input. I truly learned a lot from that, and realised how different action games were.

DFG: So, it was more about looking at those hands-on aspects in elaborate detail, rather t馃尦han things like planning?

SUDA51: That鈥檚 right. I received a lot of advice.

I also had asked a number of people to help out with the writing, but I was found out by Mikami-san straight away (laughs). 鈥淭his isn鈥檛 your writing is it, Suda-san? That鈥檚 no good. You have to write it all yourself.鈥� Then I said, 鈥淏ut it鈥檚 fine if I don鈥檛 write this part, right?鈥� to which his respons馃惢e was, 鈥淣o. You have to write everything.鈥� That鈥檚 how much faith Mikami-san had in my scenario wri馃惣ting ability. It was such high praise that I got a little carried away.

So, I thought to myself, 鈥淚f the things I write have that kind of power, then it would be wrong of me to not pour all of my energy into my writing.鈥� You could say that Mikami-san was truly able to get everything out of me. I think that鈥檚 how much he wanted to draw o饞妿ut the full potential of Grasshopper. In that sense, I think that he鈥檚 also an amaz馃挏ing producer.

DFG: The development period for Killer7 was quite long, but would you say that you continued 馃幎to饞亙 rally together with Mikami-san?

SUDA51: That鈥檚 right. The development period w岍氠岍氠岍氠鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氣仱鈦も仱鈦め鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氿拃贬岍氠as extended, sometimes little by little, and sometimes in a big chunk. Mikami-san was the one who shouldered all of that, too.

I personally see Mikami-san as my second mentor, and I even received official approval. He once said, 鈥淚 guess it鈥檚軎� okay if you鈥檙e my apprentice, Suda-san鈥� (laughs).

The invigorating feeling of an action game is born from devotedly making adjustments over and over

DFG: You previously mentioned the long-term outlook of Grasshopper, but had you already decided in the beginning that you eventually wanted to be 鈾沵aking action games?

SUDA51: Yes. I love action games, so it鈥檚 natural to want to make the kind of games I li嗉掟煂宬e, right? RPGs don鈥檛 really suit me.

DFG: It鈥檚 difficult to put the essence of action games into words, but I think there鈥檚 a certain value in that. What are your tho饞€皍ghts about it?

SUDA51: The development of an action game has th鉁�e feeling of making repeated adjustments as you s馃悗earch for the sweet spot.

In Mikami-san鈥檚 words, 鈥淚n action games, there are moments when you are rewarded by the gaming gods.鈥� In fact, I鈥檝e also had a number of those moments. There are times I鈥檇 be sitting at a programmer鈥檚 desk feeling something was strange as I played. We鈥檇 continue to tune it, until all of a sudden, everything just clicks in an instant. For example, just by increasing the hit stop by 10 frames, or expanding the hit detection range by up to 1.5 times and extend軎篿ng the effect, suddenly there鈥檚 just a moment of 鈥淭hat鈥檚 it!鈥� It鈥檚 a feeling of building it up like that.

By adhering to, and repeating the process of adjustment and implementation, you gradually get closer to your mark. I think that鈥檚 where馃尭 the invigorating feeling of action games is born. There鈥檚 no way that you could make anything interesting by only inserting things戛� just as they are in the planning and specification documents. Things are pretty boring when you are at the stage where you have just put things together for the first time. I think that how much more interesting you can make it from there, is truly the result of steady tuning. So, you can鈥檛 really put it into words.

DFG: Did you also check all of those hands-on elements for your latest game, No More Heroes 3, yourself?

SUDA51: Yes, that鈥檚 correct. This time, I paid particular attention to the timing of moments of silence, and to how music plays in the moment you馃嵏 defeat an enemy.

DFG: I think that the combat in No More Heroes 3 has improved remarka饞啓bly, and I wondered if that was influenced by your return to the forefront as director.

SUDA51: Yamazaki (Ren Yamazaki) and I were both directors, and there were parts that we developed as a pair. Programmer Hironaka (Tooru Hironaka) created the framework for the first boss fight. I think Hironaka is probably the best at making boss fights in the industry, and馃弲 it was our job to take what he had, and gradually tune it, making it feel even more enjoyable and interesting.

DFG: Did you work remotely, even up to the 戋協inal touches for this ga饞惇me?

SUDA51: Yes, we worked completely remotely.

DFG: I鈥檝e heard from many different developers that remote working is fine when yo锓絬 are developing the core elements, but that it鈥檚 very difficult to appl軎瑈 the finishing touches remotely. What are your thoughts on that?

SUDA51: We tinkered with things remotely as much as we could馃尲, right up until the very end of the schedule. As you would expect, I wanted to adjust things as soon as I got my hands on them.

DFG: Did you attempt to r馃ecreate the feeling of sitting right beside a programmer by keeping connected via Zoom the whole time?

SUDA51: Yes, we did that, and also, I would give instructions in the middle of the night, which would be implemented during the day, and then I would check them again. It was like returning to the development style of ten years ago. In particular, things like motion and programming are things that really need to be done side by side, so that鈥檚 why it was important for the staff to stay connected via Zoom. We would have our screens up together so that we could w馃嵏ork in sync.

DFG: How 馃崚much of锓� that kind of hands-on tuning do you do when the game is still in the prototype stage?

SUDA51: For No More Heroes 3, we did it surprisingly early. The fight with Henry was the first one we completed, and since that was essentially a fight between two human characters, we could use it as an extension of the previous No More Heroes games. With that, we had created one of the main loops of combat, and knew岍氠岍氠岍氠鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氣仱鈦も仱鈦め鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氿拃贬岍氠 quite early on馃 that we wanted to continue in that direction.

From there, we continued to develop the other boss fights, but as the fights were against aliens t馃帀his time, each fight ended up being completely different. We had to adjust each fight individua锓絣ly, and that took a lot of time. We barely finished prior to the game going gold.

DFG: So, the general framework of锟�锟� the game was already completed in the protot馃檲ype version?

SUDA51: This time, yes. For No More Heroes 3 it was on嗟� the relatively early side, but for other titles, there are times when嗟� the game structure is still unfinished in the prototype stage.

DFG: Was it due 馃悷to things that you have cultivated throughout the series that馃寣 you were able to complete the framework so quickly?

SUDA51: I think so. However, I had mostly forgotten No More Heroes 1 and 2 (laughs).聽 You start to forget after so much time has passed, so you need to play them again. With 3, there was a mindset within the team that we wouldn鈥檛 lose to 1 and 2.

This time around, the team was almost completely new. You could probably say that it was the team from Travis Strikes Again. However, there were a number of staff that had been involved with the series since 1.

DFG: How many people were in the team?

SUDA51: For Travis Strikes Again, we had less than ten people. There were external staff that also contributed, and we somehow managed to finish it. This time around, for 3, 鈾歸e had 20 core members. Tha馃nks to Bee Tribe also helping out with a large portion, we were able to finish the amount of content that was in the game.

Grasshopper-ism is the continual creation of original and inventive games

DFG: 鈾扗oes Grasshopper intend to continue focusing all effort on developing one game at a time, rather than being spread across two or three projects?

SUDA51: Yes, that鈥檚 wha鈾憈 we鈥檝e done up until now, and I think it鈥檚 also the basis for 馃挓us moving forward.

In the past, there were periods where we were working on multiple projects, but at those times I thought that there weren鈥檛 enough directors, which is something you touched on before. Even if you establish multiple development lines, the responsibility falls on us戋� as the developers. That kind of burden would loom large if we were unable to deliver in the end.

Based on the experiences from those times, and since I am the face of Grasshopper, I wanted to first focus on making my own games. Recently, even overseas, they have started calling them 鈥楽uda games鈥�, though I have mixed feelings on that (laughs). But I think it鈥�s clear that the m塬ost important thing is to first strengthen the team tha鉀巘 creates my own games. That then becomes a foundational pillar.

Of course, I would also like to ma軎卥e some indie games as a way to have the younger staff a鉀quire more experience. I鈥檇 like to do both of those things together.

DFG: In that sense, do you see it 馃悹as something different to simply increasing the scale of development beyond what is necessary?

SUDA51: Yes, that鈥檚 right. Right now, we are looking to increase the size of the team to 30 people. Within the next three yea鈾宺s, we will first increase to 50, and then carefully add more people up to a maximum of probably around 80. At that kind of pace, and considering the training of staff and new graduates, it would probably be a little difficult to have a core team of over 80 people. If you go beyond that, you start to lose the ability t軎憃 function as a team.

DFG: When looking at people who create things, I think there are those that have their own evaluation standards and those that don鈥檛. So, what are the evaluation standards that you have? What kind of decisions led to the creation of games like Killer7 and No More Heroes?

SUDA51: On a serious note, since long ago, I have thought about what the w軎梠rd 鈥榢aihatsu鈥� [Japanese term for development] really means. I think that the 鈥榢ai鈥� in kaihatsu comes from the word 鈥榢aitaku鈥� [to pioneer; break new ground], and that the 鈥榟atsu鈥� comes from the word 鈥榟atsumei鈥� [invention馃墣]. Therefore, the work that we do is to pioneer and to invent. That idea lies at the foundation of my game creation.

So, it鈥檚 the same when I evaluate things. The idea of invention is very important. It isn鈥檛 very easy to do nowadays, but I want to invent or create one thing 馃尭ever戛祔 day. It doesn鈥檛 matter if it鈥檚 only something small. For example, if I think up a button combination that hasn鈥檛 been done in any other game, that鈥檚 one kind of invention. If I create a new image for a character, that鈥檚 one invention. I believe that if you do that every day, then it will lead to the completion of an overwhelmingly innovative game.

It鈥檚 good if that creativity can come from within yourse馃おlf, but I al馃儚so think that it doesn鈥檛 matter who it is that invents something new. No matter if it鈥檚 a veteran or someone new, if an idea is inventive and interesting, then we use it.

That鈥檚 very important to me. In particular, with ideas, people who are interesting have the best ones. So, it鈥檚 better to not worry about things like pride. If someone presents an idea, it doesn鈥檛 matter if they are from completely different depart馃挒ments like a programmer or a composer. If the idea is interesting, then you should use it. I suppose that would be my evaluation criteria. The fact that you are a veteran means that you should do away with useless crap like pride.

It is the job of a director to make the most of all of that, and put everything together. Direction is being able to catch the ball, no ma啾爐ter the kind of pitch. To be able to handle them all with ease, no matter what kind of monsters come your way. For example, even if you are working with someone outside of the games industry, you should properly work together with th馃惣at person, and manage it appropriately. In the end it鈥檚 about the experience of somehow bringing it all together with your own power.

That鈥檚 why I want everyone to pitch th馃巸eir balls freely. I choose the best pitches among 軎恡hose, and eventually, I complete one game. I feel like I have always continued to repeat that process.

DFG: How do you jud軎痝e whether t饾搥hose ideas are good or bad?

SUDA51: It鈥檚 whether I find them interesting or not.

There are staff within Grasshopper that have had long careers, including my co-director Yamazaki. So, opinions like 鈥淟et鈥檚 do this鈥�, a馃敶nd 鈥淚 think that鈥檚 good鈥�, tend to fit together nicely. You馃摉 could say that makes things easier.

Thanks to the studio having been around for so long and having so many veterans together, I thi馃悡nk that everyone has a certain 鈥楪rasshopper-ism鈥� within them, which can鈥檛 be put into words.

DFG: How would you define 鈥楪rasshopper-ism鈥� or the Grass馃挮hopper style that you just mentioned?

SUDA51: I have no idea (laughs). What I kind of thought by listening to what the staff has said during other interviews, is that Grasshopper specializes in developing original games. It鈥檚 a company where it鈥檚 normal to create unique games. Looking at it the other way, I guess that means we鈥檙e not very good at cre鉁卆ting licensed games or working on existing IP.

So, Grasshopper-ism is the continual creation of original games. I think Grasshopper is a group whose specialty is bein馃敎g軎� able to constantly create unique things. That鈥檚 a little vague, but I think that鈥檚 who we are.

Also, we can relate through things like B movies or cult films, as those are my interests. That鈥檚 where Gundam comes into things. For example, if I make a reference to Gundam, but we have younger staff who haven鈥檛 seen it, then we watch it together. That鈥檚 the kind of culture we have. As another example, I love John Carpenter鈥檚 film They Live. So, if I make a reference to They Live, then we all watch the film together. That鈥檚 the kind of 戋焎ompany we are (laughs).

So, I think that everybody gets to enjoy s饾攳ome of my interests, or at least they鈥檙e a group that doesn鈥檛 find doing that too painful.

DFG: In Japan, there are many game companies that do subcontracted work. They all say that they would like to create original games, but I thi馃崒nk it鈥檚 become a situation where not many actually have that ability. To put it another way, are there not companies who, like Grasshopper, have the resolve needed to create something original? I think that more so than a technological issue, it has more to do with the mindset.

SUDA51: Rather than simply having resolve, I believe that it is impossible to create original games馃摉 unless you change your routine. At Grasshopper, making original games has already become our 啻渞outine.

DFG: What do you mean by 鈥榦riginals hav喙奺 become your routine鈥�?

SUDA51: I guess it鈥檚 an atmosphere where you鈥檙e not afraid of what kind of pitch may be thrown your way. You wait, ready to catch it no matter what. The thought, 鈥淲e鈥檙e making another strange game, huh?鈥� becomes an ever馃崒yday thing, and as those days are prolonged, I think that is where you get that feeling of original games.

I often hear that if you continue only creating licensed games and working on existing IPs, then you lose the a軎慴ility to create original games. If in the moment that you suddenly have some freedom, you think, 鈥淣o, we can鈥檛 do this unless they tell us to,鈥� then that has already become routine. On the other hand, when people who normally work on original games are involved in a licensed game, they often think, 鈥淲hy can鈥檛 I make it how I want to.鈥� It almost feels as though that鈥檚 something that ge馃ts decided in the early stages of your career.

鈥淔rom now on, we鈥檙e going to take a full swing at each and every ball, and aim for a home run.鈥�

DFG: What do yo馃寽u think are the specific benefits that you gain by becoming a part of NetEase?

SUDA51: When you are running an independent studio, you can鈥檛 help but consider a title to be a single point. The publisher and fanbase differs for each individual game. Since you are creating things as a studio, you have the desire to con馃惣nect these points into a line. From a long time ago, I鈥檝e been told by various people that since we are a studio known by our name, Grasshopper Manufacture, it鈥檚 a waste to not connect that with the fanbase. However, that鈥檚 something that isn鈥檛 so easy to achieve.

When we were in discussions with NetEase, we were told, 鈥淲e don鈥檛 want to talk about one o馃崹r two games. To begin with, let鈥檚 look at around three titles in ten years. If possible, we would like to continue working together long after that.鈥� I felt that they truly wanted us.

As I said before, I want to create a line with our works, so it was important that this relationship lasted a long time. We will create our own new IPs, develop our fanbase, and continue to expand. One of our goals is to eventually have the capability to create鈾� AAA titles.

As we aim for our ideal image of creating AAA titles with a core team of 戋�80 people, NetEase is greatly supporting Grasshopper in our efforts to strengthen the studio.

DFG: I thin馃惙k that when you join a large company such as NetEase, there are often misconceptions like, 鈥淭hey got purchased,鈥� or 鈥淭hey鈥檒l get pressured from above,鈥� but it鈥檚嗟� actually a little different, isn鈥檛 it?

SUDA51: Yes, it鈥檚 different.

DFG: The relationship between developers and publishers is fundamental馃帀ly one of order and supply, but in contrast, the relationship between Grasshopper and NetEase is actually closer to that of a venture company and an incubator, 鈾媟ight?

SUDA51: Yes, it鈥檚 close to that.

DFG: I馃尦 don鈥檛 think that this relationship was properly conveyed to the world. It would probably be better to more clearly explain how it is because of this relationship, that you can continue for the next ten years.

SUDA51: I agree. Th鈾巃t鈥檚 an aspect that I want to carefully communicate.

The desire from NetEase was, 鈥淲e are not investing in you j馃挳ust so you make games that will sell. We want you to be a fascinating studio, and we want you to create engrossing games.鈥� As a creator, it makes you happy to hear that kind of thing.

They even said that they had no problem even if we strike out each time at bat. That means that I can swing as hard as I want (laughs). So, I intend to take a full swing. That鈥檚 a blessing for a cr馃挦eator.

I think that I will be able to create about ten more games before I die. So, for each of those喾� ten at bats, I鈥檓 going to take full swings and aim for home runs. I don鈥檛 quite know what the definition of a home run would be in this instance, but that鈥檚 what NetEase is expecting of us.

DFG: Grasshopper has collaborated with a variety of different creators in the past. Do you think there wi鈾宭l be any change now that you have joined NetEase?

SUDA51: Even for No More Heroes 3, we collaborated with馃拵 peo馃叞ple outside of the games industry. Nobuaki Kaneko participated with the music, and illustrator Masanori Ushiki created some incredible artwork for us. In the future, we intend to be even more active in pursuing collaborations with such artists. They will provide creative energy from a completely different place to that of our games, and give birth to something new. I鈥檇 like to keep these waves rolling.

DFG: I get the impression that you are always finding in鈾晅eresting things outside of games and then skillfully incorporating them. I think that it must be quite hard to blend such elements into games.

SUDA51: I actually find that a rather fun thing to do. If we only do things on our own, it starts to become familiar practice or a habit, right? However, if you work together with new people馃敮, you break from those habits and must once again take things on with a more serious attitude. In that way, I think it has the beneficial effect of creating a sense of tension.

Also, it鈥檚 incredibly fun to work with some of those fiendish people in other industries. There鈥檚 enjoyment in being able to handle them, and I have a sort of confidence wh岍氠岍氠岍氠鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氣仱鈦も仱鈦め鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氿拃贬岍氠ich never wavers.

For me personally, The Silver Case was a game where I attempted dealing with that. I incorporated a variety of film techniques into a singl戋慹 game. Though, I guess you could say that work is much easier now when compared to those days, as filmmakers would flatly refuse requests related to video games. There were times when I couldn鈥檛 convince them to film anything.

Thankfully, these days they often already know me, so it鈥檚 become easier to work without even having to introduce myself. In other words, it would be a waste to not do more. There are many interesting people throughout the w軎搊rld, so I think that it would be a shame to not come together with these people as a 鈾奻amily and create things.

DFG: You spoke about the confidence that you possess, but what is the reason for that confidenc馃挏e? When people are young, they have a kind of baseless confidence. However, as they age, that kind of confidence fades and is replaced by a confidence with a solid foundation. I don鈥檛 think that in itself is necessarily a good thing, but what do you think is a good balance between those two different forms of confidence?

SUDA51: I think confidence that has a basis is born from experience. It鈥檚 a result of all of the different things you go through, including development or 饾暣management experience.

The baseless part of confidence is kind of like you can no longer throw a 160km/h fastball, but you can still throw a sinker, and you鈥檙e more deceptive (laughs). I can鈥檛 really handle the large amount of work anymore. I have less time to write scenarios. Even with No More Heroes 3, I was able to戋� write it because I knew I had to do it in a short time. In the old days, there were times when I wouldn鈥檛 be able to write anything, even if I worked through the night. However, with my current lifestyle, I have to write within the limited time that I 馃悡have. I suppose that I鈥檓 adapting to it, or maybe my abilities are becoming more specialized.

DFG: What kind of t馃厴hings do you take in and learn these days?

SUDA51: I don鈥檛 think that I really take much in. It鈥檚 been a long time since I鈥檝e really dug deep and explored for the岍氠岍氠岍氠鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氣仱鈦も仱鈦め鈦も仱鈦も仱岍氿拃贬岍氠 sake of making something. If I decide to tackle certain genres in the future, then I think I鈥檇 have to delve in and do some res馃悹earch.

Th馃崒ese days I don鈥檛 think that I really have to push myself too hard. Right now, I think it鈥檚 time to take all the things I absorbed while pushing myself in my youth, and think about how I can thoroughly put it all on display. Also, I think it鈥檚 natural for me to observe and discover things that I see o馃挮r feel during everyday life, like the scenery or atmosphere of the era.

DFG: When creating something, I think that there are around 100 decisions that need to be made, and that it鈥檚 the director who makes those decisions. If around 90 of those 100 decisions are correct, the result is an amazing game. However, there鈥檚 a very low probability that you would make all of those choic馃嵏es correctly, so it鈥檚 important to have evaluation standards that are very preci馃寽se. That鈥檚 why directors are so vital.

SUDA51: Yes鈾�, it鈥檚 ab鈾抩ut judgement. It鈥檚 how you decide if something is the correct choice.

DFG: So, by making judgements based on your own standards, games like No More Heroes 3 are born. Today, I鈥檝e once aga戋抜n realized that your games owe everything to the fact that you are the one making them. I鈥檓 greatly looking 軎玣orward to the next game that you create.

SUDA51: Thank you. For that purpose, we are actively recruiting, though it鈥檚 nothing large scale. I think there are a lot of pe馃挋ople in the industry burning with the desire to create new games. Though, there are probably many people who might think Grasshopper seems a little scary (laughs).

We鈥檙e opening an incredibly cool office in March 2022, and I think there will be a surge of appl戛礽cants once they see it. So, I think you have a better chance of being hired if you apply now (laughs).

DFG: No More Heroes 3 was the first time in a whi馃尀le that you worked at the forefront in the role of director. What do you in嗖宼end to do in the future?

SUDA51: I鈥檇 like to continue on our current course. I don鈥檛 think I need to act in an executive 馃Цrole anymore. Of course, if our younger staff were to create indie titles馃寣, then I would serve as producer.

From now on, I鈥檇 like to caref馃挦ully create games, one at a time, so I鈥檇 like to encourage like minded people to apply. Now is truly the time.